Personal Law Board is against the
interests
of Muslim women’
Hasnath Mansur is a prominent Muslim woman’s activist from
Bangalore. In this interview with Yoginder Sikand she talks about the
ongoing debates on Islam and women and on the recent splits in the All-India
Muslim Personal Law Board.
Q: Could you tell us something about your background?
A: I was a teacher for several decades and have now retired. I taught at
several schools in different places in South India and finally retired as
principal of the Abbas Khan Girls’ College, Bangalore, where I served for more
than two decades. I was also a member of the Karnataka State Minorities’
Commission. Currently I am associated with several organisations working with
women, especially Muslim women, in Karnataka.
Q: What do you feel about the recent splits in the All-India Muslim Personal
Law Board?
A: My own view is that the Board has no right to claim to speak for all the
150 million or so Muslims of India. The Board is like an NGO, a self-styled
organisation that claims that it is the representative of all Indian Muslims,
whereas this is not the case at all. I doubt if even a tenth of the Indian
Muslim population even knows about the existence of the Board. It is an elitist
organisation, visible in some cities and towns. What do the poor Muslim masses
have to do with it? What do women have to do with it? I don’t think the Board
has done any good at all for ordinary Muslims.
Q: But as the ulema on the Board would argue, they have
at least been able to ‘protect’ Muslim Personal Law, which they see as an
integral part of Muslim identity.
A: I beg to differ. If the Board did not exist, Muslims would have devised other
ways of resisting the imposition of a Uniform Civil Code. And furthermore, I do
not think that the personal law that the Board so ardently defends is fully
‘Islamic’. Take the case of the standard nikahnama (marriage contract)
that, after decades of pressure by women’s groups, the Board is now talking
about. It does not mention a woman’s Islamic right to have her marriage
dissolved through khula, and it also does not ban the obnoxious practice
of triple talaq in one sitting, which is a completely ‘un-Islamic’
practice. So how can you argue that the Board is actually defending the Shari’ah
at least as far as that term is understood in the Koran? So, I would go so far
as to say that rather than doing anything positive for the community, the Board
has been working against its interests, the interests of half of the community,
the interests of Muslim women.
Tell me, what moral right do I have to tell my Hindu friends
that Islam provides equality to women? They are bound to retort that if a
religion allows for a woman to be instantly divorced at the mere whim of her
husband it certainly cannot be said to be gender-just! How can you expect
someone to be a good Muslim if you tell her that her religion allegedly says
that her husband can divorce her simply by uttering a word three times at one
go?
Q: According to you, then, the practice of triple talaq
in one sitting is ‘un-Islamic’. Can you elaborate?
A: See, for me Islam is a religion of justice and mercy. God is described in
the Koran as ‘The Merciful’, and Muslims are exhorted to practice justice. Now,
how on earth, you tell me, can a man who divorces his wife simply by uttering
the world talaq three times in one sitting be considered to be just and
merciful? Isn’t this practice simply tyrannical? How can one justify such
tyranny when Islam tells us that it is opposed to tyranny? How can a man divorce
a woman just whenever he wants by uttering three words in one go when marriage
in Islam is supposed to be a contract between two equal partners? When triple
talaq in one sitting is not mentioned in the Koran, and when the Prophet
himself is said to have condemned the practice, then how and why is it that the
Board simply refuses to do away with it?
Q: The ulema who support the practice of triple talaq
in one sitting argue that they are following the practice of Umar, the second
Sunni Caliph, who apparently allowed for it. How do you see this argument?
A: I challenge the ulema to prove that this practice is Koranic. I
insist that it is totally un-Koranic and, therefore, wrong. Now, Muslims are
required to follow only the Koran, without adding anything to it, and so no
matter what Hazrat Umar or anyone else may have said or done, we are not bound
to follow them if it is not in accordance with the Koran. If Hazrat Umar decided
on allowing for triple talaq in one sitting, that was his own personal
decision or ijithad, and we today are not bound by it but, instead, by
the Koran. He must have made this decision in response to the conditions
prevailing in Arab society in his time. Hence, it may have been suitable for
that particular historical context, but surely it is not applicable today, when
all that results from it is untold misery for the woman. Even if the man does
not pronounce talaq three times in one sitting the threat that he might
do so constantly haunts many women.
In Hazrat Umar’s time the divorced woman could easily remarry,
as there was no stigma attached to that. If she did not marry she would be
maintained by the State through the public treasury, the bait ul-mal. But
today, in India, a terrible stigma is attached to a divorced woman, who finds it
next to impossible to remarry. This stigma cuts across religious boundaries. And
there is no statutory bait ul-mal system here, so obviously the divorced
woman in India today is not the same as the divorced woman in Hazrat Umar’s
time, so it is wrong to apply Hazrat Umar’s ijithad to our context. That
is why I believe we need to go back to what the Koran says, and practice
talaq in the manner approved of by the Koran.
Q: If the practice of triple talaq in one sitting is not
Koranic, or not even ‘Islamic’, as you insist, how do you account for the
deep-rooted patriarchal tradition of fiqh or jurisprudence that the
traditionalist ulema so passionately defend, as for instance, in their
defence of the practice of triple talaq in one sitting?
A: See, I am a practicing Muslim, and I learnt my Islam from my parents, who
were devout Muslims themselves. I come from a family that has produced several
well known Sufis. And my reading of the Koran tells me that there is no
intermediary between the individual believer and God. I can understand the Koran
myself, and I don’t need anyone else, no maulana-mullah, to tell me what
the Koran says.
Now, the maulvis will say, no, you cannot understand
Islam yourself. You have to take the help of the maulvis. You have to
study numerous books of Hadith and fiqh and commentaries and
super-commentaries on these written by the ulema. I vehemently disagree.
The Koran is addressed to everybody, which means that everyone has a right to
read it and interpret it according to her own understanding. Islam is meant to
be a simple religion, meant for all. If it is so simple, then where is the need
for a special class of mullahs and of all these books other than the
Koran in order to understand what Islam is all about?
As I see it, this argument that you cannot understand Islam on
your own, but that you have to follow what the mullahs say, is simply a
means to bolster the authority, power and privileges of those who claim to be
ulema. All you need to understand the Koran properly is piety and sincere
intention. You don’t need to be a big scholar, to have written or read many
books, to understand it.
Now, to come back to the point I was making, this notion that to
understand the Koran you have to take the help of Hadith and fiqh is, for
me at least, very problematical. The books of Hadith and fiqh were
written much after the death of the Prophet. As many mullahs themselves
will agree, there are many so-called Hadith reports that are simply concocted to
denigrate and subordinate women. So, you have this so-called Hadith that says
that the majority of the denizens of hell will be women. Or another one which
says that if God had decreed that a human being should prostrate before someone
other than Him, He would have ordained women to prostrate before their husbands!
Now, as a believing Muslim woman I ask, how could the Prophet,
the very embodiment of mercy and love, have ever made such statements? These
have been wrongly attributed to him by some writers who claim to have been great
ulema. Likewise, the tradition of fiqh, which the mullahs
claim represents the divine Shari’ah, is replete with misogynist statements and
rules that are a complete contradiction of the egalitarian message of the Koran.
That is why I say we need to follow only the Koran and nothing else.
The Koran itself tells us that it alone is sufficient for our
guidance. The Prophet told his followers to follow only the Koran. If the Koran
alone suffices for Muslims as the book of guidance for Muslims, then why do the
mullahs insist on following other books for guidance or supplementing the
Koran with other books and with human beings who claim to be ‘authorities’? By
doing so, aren’t we marginalising the Koran? So, I insist, we don’t need to
follow concocted so-called Hadith, fiqh or the mullahs who claim
to represent Islam.
Q: To come back to the issue of the All-India Muslim Personal
Board, do you feel that the inclusion of some women in the Board has made much
of a difference? Do you think that the recent splits in the Board, including the
setting up of two boards by some Sunni and Shia women, would make a major
difference?
A: Personally, I am opposed to sectarianism, and I don’t see why Shia and Sunni
women should form separate boards, especially since I believe that the
differences between the two sects are relatively minor, and both agree on the
cardinal teachings of Islam. I do not think the setting up of parallel boards
would make much of a difference from the point of view of women. I say this on
the basis of my own association with several women as well as men who are
members of the Board. The women on the Board have little or no say in its
decisions. Some of them are simply too scared to speak out against patently
patriarchal biases of many men on the Board. They fear that if they do they
might be accused of dividing the community or challenging the authority of the
mullahs on the Board, who claim to have a monopoly of speaking for Islam.
I really wonder what those women on the Board are there for. Why didn’t they
protest when the nikahnama was being discussed, when leading lights of
the Board denied women their Koranic right of khula and allowed for the
un-Koranic, or should I say anti-Koranic, practice of triple talaq in one
sitting?
The setting up of a separate women’s Muslim Personal Law board
appears a positive thing, but it is too early to say if this would lead to any
substantial change for Muslim women from the working class or for rural Muslim
women. As for the new boards that have been set up by some male ulema, I
do not see them as much more progressive, from the point of view of women, than
the existing All-India Muslim Personal Law Board. However, the Shia ulema
are said to be against the practice of triple talaq in one sitting, and
that is, of course, a good thing. But I don’t think these new boards, in
addition to the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board, are going to do anything
major for women. My own personal view is that they are simply too scared of
women speaking out or taking over.
Many Muslim men see themselves as insecure, perhaps because of
Muslims being in a minority in India, perhaps because of social and economic
marginalisation, the rise of Hindutva fascism and repeated riots directed
against the Muslims. So, since they feel insecure in the public sphere they want
to compensate for it by stressing their authority in the private sphere, in the
family, by controlling their women.
Q: You seem to be arguing that there is little hope for the
Board to seriously address the issue of Muslim women’s legal problems because of
what you see as the patriarchal fiqh that the traditionalist ulema
defend instead of what you see as Koranic fiqh. How, then, do you react
to the announcement of the Board that it will seek to promote awareness against
the ‘misuse’ of triple talaq in one sitting through what it calls a
community-wide islah-i mashra (social reform) movement?
A: This is all hogwash. I again insist that we should follow the Koran and what
it says. Is the Board ready to lay that down and, through this islah-i mashra
movement, convey this message to the Muslim public? Is it willing to declare,
through this movement, that only the Koranic method of talaq, and no
other method, including triple talaq in one sitting, is acceptable? Is it
willing to declare that Muslim women, too, have the right to have their
marriages dissolved through khula?
If the mullahs are true to Islam they must convey,
through this islah-i mashra venture, that only the Koranic method should
be followed. But that is not what the Board is doing! They recognise that triple
talaq in one sitting is a ‘wrongful innovation’ (bidat), and they
even recite a Hadith which says that every bidat is a crime (zalalat),
which leads to Hell. But at the same time they say that this bidat of
triple talaq in one sitting must not be abolished! They say it is a
‘sinful’ practice but they also legitimise it in the name of ‘Islam’. How
ridiculous! As a practicing Muslim, I ask, if something is recognised as sinful
how can it be said to be an integral part of Islam? How can someone, no matter
how big an Islamic scholar he claims to be, argue that his views should prevail
over the Koran?
So, this islah-i mashra thing is really not going to make
much of a difference. Men are not going to stop resorting to triple talaq
in one sitting simply because a mullah tells them that it is sinful,
because, simultaneously, the mullah tells them that it is also allowed!
The Board has been talking about launching this islah-i mashra movement
for years now but has done next to nothing about it at the grassroots.
Q: If you don’t see the Board as giving Muslim women their
rights, what option do you think Muslim women have?
A: If the Board continues to deny Muslim women their rights they will have no
option but to resort to the secular courts, which have the prerogative to
administer Muslim Personal Law. This, of course, should not be construed as
support for the imposition of a Uniform Civil Code. I am as opposed to that as I
am to the claims of the mullahs. Recently, some judgements by the courts
have been very favourable to women, based on the judges’ own interpretations of
Muslim Personal Law. The traditionalist mullahs, of course, can be
expected to be quite opposed to these interpretations. They would argue that
non-Muslim judges have no right to interpret the Koran. That is why they are now
demanding that Muslims should set up their own family courts or dar ul-qazas,
where family disputes can be decided by Muslim qazis. Given the fact that
these qazis have been reared in a fiercely patriarchal tradition of
medieval fiqh, as distinct from Koranic fiqh, I think this would
not help women at all, and might be very counterproductive from their point of
view.
I am totally opposed to these dar ul-qazas. I have my
serious doubts about the men who man these institutions. I fear that the
patriarchal interpretations of Islam that they follow will not allow them to
provide justice to women. The setting up of these dar ul-qazas is of no
use unless there is a radical change in the mindset of the mullahs and qazis.
For this, as I keep stressing, we need to salvage the Koran from centuries of
tradition that has obscured it. But I don’t know if the so-called ulema
would welcome that, because their claims to authority rest on their claims of
having ‘expert’ knowledge of books and subjects other than just the Koran alone.
(Yoginder Sikand was until recently head, Centre for Studies on
Indian Muslims, Hamdard University, New Delhi).
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