Frontline
April 1999
Neighbours

‘If a Pakistani mullah gets away with suppressing his own minorities, the Hindu mullah in India gets encouraged by it’

Asma Jehangir, chairperson of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), is well–known for championing the cause of Pakistan’s minorities and women’s rights even at great risk to her own life. Communalism Combat interviewed her during her recent visit to the country for an international seminar. Excerpts from the exclusive interview:

What do you think of growing religious intolerance and fundamentalism in both India and Pakistan?

In any country where this evil begins to raise its head, I think it is the responsibility of the entire region to put an end to it. In the case of India and Pakistan, whenever this suppression of minorities starts in Pakistan, it has a very catching effect in India. And whatever happens in India has a very significant impact in Pakistan.

I think because both India and Pakistan failed to confront the real issues of the people head–on, today people who promote intolerance have become more powerful. Those who want intolerance to end are fragmented. And the middle–of–the–road person, who doesn’t like intolerance but is not willing to speak up, is left with no voice at all. At least in Pakistan, this is very significant. Like you, we also have militant groups, but we also have the Taleban sitting on our borders, which really is a very uncomfortable situation for us.

Why do you say that developments in India affect Pakistan and vice versa?

Because, if a Pakistani mullah gets away with suppressing his own minorities, the Hindu mullah here, begins to get encouraged by it. Although they keep pointing fingers at each other, the lesson that both have learnt is that the government is too weak to do anything about them. And, of course, ordinary people like you and me can’t pick up arms against them. So, they seem to get encouraged.

Take for instance, the case of Bishop John Joseph’s self–immolation. It had a big impact. The minorities were very angry. But soon after that India went ahead and had the nuclear tests. When tensions rise at that level, it leaves the minorities in Pakistan too hesitant to talk about violations in their own country.

Do you see any connection between the kind of fundamentalist forces rising in India, especially now with the attacks against Christians, and the wave of Islamisation in Pakistan?

Well, I’m not an expert on India, so I would not really be able to make a comment. But, certainly in Pakistan, the orthodoxy or militant forces that have come up — and not only in recent years, they have been growing gradually since the 1980s — are very much linked to international politics and the whole question of pan–Islamism which the US began to build and then abandoned halfway. But in doing so, they let all the decision making go into the hands of certain forces, who have still not given up the idea. And now, these forces are very well entrenched in positions of power.

What do you see as the effect of the Shariat bill if it does get passed, on the minorities in Pakistan?

Well, just the fact that minorities have to live by the religious laws of the majority is a denial of a pluralistic society. So, for the Prime Minister to say that the Shariat bill will not affect the minorities doesn’t make sense.

Do you think that the bill will lead to greater marginalisation of the minorities in Pakistan?

Well, let me say that whatever else the 15th amendment may or may not do, there is an atmosphere that it will certainly create. And that atmosphere has already been created to some extent. Though the amendment has not been passed on paper yet, in the minds of the Mullah it has already been passed. The kind of frenzy that they are creating and the kind of preparations that they are making are horrific. Anyone who opposes the bill is surrounded, taken to task; fatwas are issued against them. People not even worth the name begin to give fatwas!

Are the victimised minorities of Pakistan getting united?

No, there are no links between the minority groups in Pakistan. We haven’t really politically matured to that level yet.

In terms of minority rights, what is the picture with the Hindus in Sind, who have not been victims of active violence, as in case of Christians, but who face discrimination in subversive ways as they largely form the force of bonded labour in Sind? The HRCP hasn’t really actively taken up the problems of the Hindus in Sind?

No, it has. And very strongly so. In fact, the HRCP was the first organisation that even addressed the question of bonded labour both in Punjab and in Sind. We found out that in Punjab, most of the bonded labour belongs to the Christian community, while in Sind to the Hindu community. There are political reasons behind it apart from the social and economic. It is not just that they are a poorer section of society, there is also the problem arising from the system of separate electorates. All these Vaderas, and even people who are big employers of Bhatta, are politicians. They know they will not really be able to get away by keeping Muslims as bonded labour. As for bonded Hindus and Christians, they don’t really care because they are considered electorally worthless. That is why we have linked the whole question to that of the separate electorates system and we very much advocate that it end.

You took a lot of initiative regarding the blasphemy laws in Pakistan. Has that had any impact?

Well, there’s really nothing happening on the blasphemy laws. But, it’s brought the issue to the forefront and people are more aware of it. It is very important to review closely any law that gives a compulsory death penalty. But especially so for a crime like blasphemy where a false accusation can easily be made. In our society, we have to be sensible and realise that it is going to be mercilessly misused. History has shown that it has been misused since it so easily creates tension and emotionalism.

What according to you are the prospects for improvements in Indo–Pak relations?

Frankly, I don’t have much faith in the politicians. Why should the politicians do anything unless people compel them to? So, movements have to start where they must compel the politicians or produce some alternative leadership. Today it is absolutely essential for third world countries to have first class leadership. Instead, we are moving downwards. In a unipolar world, unless we look after our own interests, in an informed manner, how are we going to develop in the future in this free enterprise market? These are very vital issues to look at. We, as third world countries, can be exploited. We may even well be exploited in the name of human rights.

You said you have no hope in politicians. What about non–governmental initiatives?

Yes, of course, I think it’s been marvellous. Last time when I was in Peshawar (for the Pakistani–India People’s Forum for Peace and Democracy convention), I saw people very seriously addressing some of the questions. Now, these are good initiatives but they’re not enough. And they never will be enough unless we do expand our base to include people. And we have to include the politician. We simply cannot take over the responsibilities of the politician. We can build an atmosphere where politicians are forced to do something. But at the end of it all, it’s the horse that we have to take to the water and to make it drink.

How do you think you could include the politicians in terms of the current situation, with the Sharif government in Pakistan and the BJP in India?

I am less hopeful of how we are going to do it in Pakistan. Because I really don’t know.

Why do you see more hope in India?

Because in India you have a large, or rather a larger body of intellectuals and there are still people whose objectivity and integrity can be counted upon in times of a crisis. We are fast losing both these commodities in Pakistan. And you’re a very large country, your politicians come from different regions. The world may not know them, but there is a laboratory of politicians and you never know which one will hit the national scene. We don’t have that. We have the same old field which is ploughed and sowed for years and years. So, they are stale politicians. There is no laboratory. We don’t even have local body elections. And the ones we have, national or otherwise, any kind of elections, are all so badly rigged.

What can intellectuals do, especially given the nature of the present governments on both sides?

Well, you change the government! You really basically need the support of the people. I think it’s a marvellously brave fight that people in India put up, for example, on this film Fire. It was very encouraging for a person like me because I don’t know if we would have been able to put up the same kind of fight if it came up in Pakistan.

So, you think the people themselves are lacking in Pakistan?

I think the people are lacking, the courage is lacking, and the atmosphere is very hostile to any un–orthodox thought. I would not even call it liberal thought.

Late Justice Dorab Patel (founder of HRCP) had told this magazine in an interview in March 1995 that it was women who were taking the lead on human rights issues in Pakistan. Your comments?

I think women are going to take over the entire world in the next millennium, it’s not only Pakistan!

Aren’t you being over–optimistic considering that fundamentalist forces that are growing in both countries, are trying their best to push women back?

Oh, these things happen in history. But why are the fundamentalist forces doing this? Who are they most scared of? Women! It’s amazing. Women across the globe think alike now. So, I think that, yes, these difficult times will come, but there is no doubt in my mind that there is a remarkable social movement that has to go forward, it can’t go backwards.

(Interviewed by Sufiya Pathan)


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